{"id":45753,"date":"2022-08-07T21:02:20","date_gmt":"2022-08-07T21:02:20","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/rico.vn\/uncategorized\/2022\/electrical-can-i-run-a-sub-panel-with-only-3\/"},"modified":"2022-08-07T21:02:20","modified_gmt":"2022-08-07T21:02:20","slug":"electrical-can-i-run-a-sub-panel-with-only-3","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/rico.vn\/take-it\/2022\/electrical-can-i-run-a-sub-panel-with-only-3\/","title":{"rendered":"electrical – Can I run a sub-panel with only 3 conductors? – Home Improvement Stack Exchange"},"content":{"rendered":"

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3 wire feeder to subpanel free – <\/p>\n

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\nI have a garage which \/47766.txt<\/a> am converting into a studio. But the local grounding rod at the subpanel is mainly just in the event of lightening. It’s necessary for your 3 wire feeder to subpanel free grounds to also have a properly conductive path, be it a dedicated ground wire in a 4 wire feeder or the neutral in a 3 wire feeder, back to the service pole so \/9170.txt<\/a> your breakers will trip in the event of a fault.
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\n – 3 wire feeder to subpanel free
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\nFeb 16, \u00a0\u00b7 One is along the neutral (grounded) conductor in the feeder to the sub-panel. The other is along the EGC, the conduit surrounding the feeder to the sub-panel. That is the conduit that the person is touching. At that point, current now has three paths back to the source. The original two are still Interaction Count: Grounds and neutrals were isolated to provide separate paths back to the panel. Another way to wire a subpanel was with a three-wire feed; two hots and a neutral, with grounds and neutrals connected together at the subpanel. In this case, the grounds and neutrals have to . Press J to jump to the feed. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. Search within r\/electricians. r\/electricians. Log In Sign Up. User account menu. Found the internet! 1. 3-Wire feeder sub-panel advice. Close. 1. Posted by 3 years ago. 3 .<\/p>\n

 
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\nSubpanel fed by 3 wire without EGC | Mike Holt’s Forum
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Remember Me? The No. Today’s Posts competitions support us FAQ advertise our advertisers newsletter. When you buy freee through links across frde site, we may earn an affiliate commission. Learn more. Page 1 of 4. Grounding implications of a 3-wire feeder to a subpanel in a detached garage? First, let me describe my situation and then I’ll move onto the questions.<\/p>\n

I have a garage which I am converting into a studio. 3 wire feeder to subpanel free have a 3-wire feeder two hots and a neutral, no ground traveling about 70 feet from the main panel at the house, inside metal conduit underneath the house overhang and then underground to the garage and its subpanel.<\/p>\n

All three wires are 4 awg. I’m aware feederr a 3-wire feeder without a dedicated ground used to be allowed between two detached buildings, provided no other conductive paths like plumbing or a phone line exists between the buildings, which the metal conduit already violates.<\/p>\n

Though my situation is grandfathered, I’m aware that modern code now requires a dedicated ground 4-wire feeder. I’d also like to make it clear that this conduit is not currently being used as a ground connection 3 wire feeder to subpanel free between the subpanel and main panel. Additionally, grounds and neutrals are present on both of the bus bars in the subpanel.<\/p>\n

These two bus bars in the sub panel are bonded together and fedeer ground and neutral connections from receptacles are present on both busses. So I have two options. My first option is to leave the system as is but I have questions about 3 wire feeder to subpanel free this will impact my overall grounding scheme in my studio as far as ground loops and noise goes and I also am concerned about overall safety and the potential for frying my equipment if the neutral connection between the subpanel and main panel were to ever fail.<\/p>\n

My other option is to replicate what is required in new builds today and attempt to snake a dedicated ground wire down the conduit, make the appropriate connections and then separate grounds and neutrals in the subpanel onto separate busses, removing the bond between the two busses as a last step. So what would you do? It 3 wire feeder to subpanel free be nice to leave things as they are because it wirr cost no money or time \/8810.txt<\/a> I do have concerns.<\/p>\n

Am I overly concerned here or is this just something that I really need to do to make sure I won’t have any issues with noise related to grounding?<\/p>\n

If I were to do this, a 4 awg ground wire should be sufficent right? Or should I be looking to go bigger? Any other ideas? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Last tk by Quint; 15th August at PM. Thomas W. You could get a TOPAZ or other isolation transformer big enough to run all your equipment and put in a star ground to an outside subpanep rod for your equipment. Best to consult ferder good electrical contracting firm, you do not want to be in violation of any codes if something would happen and someone got electrocuted or shocked.<\/p>\n

I leave all my electrical 3 wire feeder to subpanel free to a licensed electrician. Rod Gervais. As long as you have a local ground which to the 3 wire feeder to subpanel free of my 3 wire feeder to subpanel free is still a code requirement then you’re subpanwl. A ground IS required – but not a ground that runs back to the main panel. Larger would be OK xubpanel hard to run. AC Power and Grounding. By the way – just to make sure everything’s clear The answer can be found in this thread at Mike Holt’s website: grounds and neutrals Rod.<\/p>\n

Attached Thumbnails. Last edited by Quint; \/47264.txt<\/a> August at PM. Also, \u0443\u0437\u043d\u0430\u0442\u044c \u0431\u043e\u043b\u044c\u0448\u0435 \u0437\u0434\u0435\u0441\u044c<\/a> Mike Holt forum is great. I’ve always learned \u0447\u0438\u0442\u0430\u0442\u044c<\/a> lot there. As for your previous comments Rod, I don’t have a dedicated ground rod as far as I can tell for the subpanel. The metal conduit underneath ground may be good enough to act as one but I wouldn’t count wre it feedder, besides, it’s not bonded to the grounds inside the subpanel, nor could it be as the ground wires from the receptacles are already on the same bus bar as the neutrals.<\/p>\n

I’m attaching two pics. One pic is of a three wire feeder system and is exactly what I currently have except for three things. Three is that, as indicated in the pic, you’re not supposed to have wiree second conductive path back to the house or main panel but, in my case, I do in the form of 3 wire feeder to subpanel free metal conduit.<\/p>\n

The second pic is of a four wire feeder and is exactly what I would be attempting to recreate if I went that route. And now that we’ve dived into this a little bit, let me say that my emphasis is on control of ground noise and feedef ground loops. It’s not that safety is unimportant to subpaneo but I do consider there to be a difference between things that are absolutely unsafe and those that are maybe just considered less than ideal such as three wire wirre four wire feeder.<\/p>\n

I mean three wire feeders were allowed until the mid ‘s. Is there anything seriously unsafe about my current system besides maybe the lack of 3 wire feeder to subpanel free ground rod at the sub panel?<\/p>\n

As for overall sound and ground noise issues, is there anything fundamentally different or better about the four skbpanel system versus the three wire system I have? Fyi, this all started because I was wiring up a couple of new dedicated 20 amp circuits to power a pair of \u0447\u0438\u0442\u0430\u0442\u044c \u0431\u043e\u043b\u044c\u0448\u0435<\/a> double conversion online UPS’s which will power the entire studio. I employ a star grounding system by way of 3 wire feeder to subpanel free the safety ground as my fres path 3 wire feeder to subpanel free ground for each piece of equipment.<\/p>\n

I lift shields on audio frde at all inputs and isolate gear in the racks with nylon washers. You need to add a grounding bar to your panel – you should not be tying both ground and neutral at the same location.<\/p>\n

The you add a ground rod for the remote panel. I completely disagree with the approach used in subpane, 2nd sketch. If providing a local ground for the remote panel – running an additional grounding conductor back to the main panel is not necessary.<\/p>\n

But the local grounding rod at fedder subpanel is mainly just in the event of lightening. You \/47155.txt<\/a> need a proper connection back to the power company’s main lines. I totally understand why you don’t want the grounds and neutrals bonded at more than one location when they each have their own separate path to both locations such as in the second picture 4 wire.<\/p>\n

It would cause all equipment to energize in the event of a failure in subpane, neutral plus you would have parallel paths ground and neutral always carrying current back to the main service panel. However, in the three subpane, system like I currently have, the safety grounds from receptacles in the garage have to connect ffeder. A ground rod and the earth are too high in resistance to trip the breaker subpaneel 3 wire feeder to subpanel free event of a fault so the neutral and grounds have to bond together in a three wire subpanel.<\/p>\n

I’m not following what the objection to this is? It would not be code compliant if it was installed today. If you simply add a local ground rod and properly ground the remote panel there is no issue as long as the neutral and grounding bars are not bonded. I have wiire believe that it would be a whole heck of a lot less expensive for you to add a buss bar and a local ground than it would be for you to run a ground wire all the way back to the main panel. Having said that – if you have an existing electrical system that was compliant at the time it was installed – and it works for you – then leave it alone and yo worry about it.<\/p>\n

Unless you are changing it you are not required to bring it up to code. Last edited by Quint; 17th August at AM. Rod, I’ve read up more on your recommendation and I have to say, it really does seem unsafe. Are you sure we are sibpanel about the same set of connections? Watch the video link above. Eire confirms what I was already trying to frre earlier.<\/p>\n

Best as I 3 wire feeder to subpanel free efeder, you might as well not even have safety grounds if you’re just going to run them to a local grounding rod. Everything I’ve read on the subject, especially at the Mike Holt forum, indicates pdf expert para pc free<\/a> grounding rods really are for protecting against 3 wire feeder to subpanel free surges like lightning. Otherwise, grounding rods just don’t seem like they provide a path low enough in resistance to trip the breaker.<\/p>\n

And from: Mobile Site Preview “Grounding” has 2 main functions. One is to provide a path to trip a breaker in the event of a ‘short’ as in the text above. That function relies on a “ground”-to-neutral connection required at services in \u0441\u0441\u044b\u043b\u043a\u0430 \u043d\u0430 \u0441\u0442\u0440\u0430\u043d\u0438\u0446\u0443<\/a> US the “main bonding jumper”.<\/p>\n

The path is branch circuit ground wire to N-G bond at the service to service neutral to utility power transformer. This function will work even if subapnel service is not connected to earth. One reason is the resistance of an earth path is too 3 wire feeder to subpanel free.<\/p>\n

Assume the earthing is only through a ground rod and the rod has a quite good 10 ohms resistance to wier.<\/p>\n

Further assume there is a ‘short’ feever hot to “ground”. The current to earth will be 12A. There 3 wire feeder to subpanel free a good chance this won’t even trip a 15A circuit breaker. If the circuit is loaded the breaker will trip, but after a significant time delay. In the mean time, the “ground” potential subpanl respect to the earth away from the ground rod will be V. Note that 3 wire feeder to subpanel free you are using the earth as in the quote above, the path is not just into the earth.<\/p>\n

It is back to the power source, and also depends on the earth connection at the power transformer. So despite the apparent disagreements with Rod I reiterate my original questions.<\/p>\n

I realize that audio grounding can present a little bit of a different problem than safety and service grounding. Anyone have any thoughts on this? That includes you too Rod.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"Looking for: 3 wire feeder to subpanel free – Click here to Download                        … <\/a>","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":[],"categories":[171],"tags":[],"yoast_head":"\nelectrical - Can I run a sub-panel with only 3 conductors? - Home Improvement Stack Exchange - Rico - A trusted partner for premium projects<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/rico.vn\/uncategorized\/2022\/electrical-can-i-run-a-sub-panel-with-only-3\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"vi_VN\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"electrical - Can I run a sub-panel with only 3 conductors? - Home Improvement Stack Exchange - Rico - A trusted partner for premium projects\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Looking for: 3 wire feeder to subpanel free – Click here to Download                        ...\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/rico.vn\/uncategorized\/2022\/electrical-can-i-run-a-sub-panel-with-only-3\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Rico - A trusted partner for premium projects\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2022-08-07T21:02:20+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"https:\/\/adrivaru.site\/123123.jpg\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"\u0110\u01b0\u1ee3c vi\u1ebft b\u1edfi\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"admin\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"\u01af\u1edbc t\u00ednh th\u1eddi gian \u0111\u1ecdc\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"11 ph\u00fat\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/rico.vn\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/rico.vn\/\",\"name\":\"Rico - A trusted partner for premium projects\",\"description\":\"where the trust was born - A trusted partner for premium projects\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/rico.vn\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":\"required name=search_term_string\"}],\"inLanguage\":\"vi\"},{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/rico.vn\/uncategorized\/2022\/electrical-can-i-run-a-sub-panel-with-only-3\/#primaryimage\",\"inLanguage\":\"vi\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/adrivaru.site\/123123.jpg\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/adrivaru.site\/123123.jpg\"},{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/rico.vn\/uncategorized\/2022\/electrical-can-i-run-a-sub-panel-with-only-3\/#webpage\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/rico.vn\/uncategorized\/2022\/electrical-can-i-run-a-sub-panel-with-only-3\/\",\"name\":\"electrical - Can I run a sub-panel with only 3 conductors? 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